Raadseleend in Spaarnwoude

Gestart door Luuk Punt, april 24, 2009, 20:03:31 PM

Vorige topic - Volgende topic

Luuk Punt

Zie http://www.zuidpier.com/ 
Klikken op de foto van de huiskraai (Foto's uit Nederland) en scrollen naar de achtste en de negende foto. Iemand een idee?
Hartelijke groet,

Luuk Punt

http://vogelpunt.wordpress.com/

Jeroen Nagtegaal

Lijkt me een hyrbide, Iets met een austrilische slobeend?

Even de directe link naar beide foto's, zoekt later wat makkelijker.
http://home.planet.nl/~slate013/raadseleend%201.JPG
http://home.planet.nl/~slate013/raadseleend%202.JPG
Groet, Jeroen Nagtegaal
Moderator subforum Ringen

Een geringde vogel gezien of gevonden.
Meld het hier of mail naar ringonderzoek@gmail.com

Jan de Lang

Voor mij is dat een vrouwtje Ringed Teal (Callonetta leucophrys), een talingsoort uit het Amazonegebied.

Jeroen Nagtegaal

Citaat van: Jan de Lang op april 25, 2009, 17:40:23 PM
Voor mij is dat een vrouwtje Ringed Teal (Callonetta leucophrys), een talingsoort uit het Amazonegebied.

Serieus? Dan is ze wel erg variabel in kleed...
Groet, Jeroen Nagtegaal
Moderator subforum Ringen

Een geringde vogel gezien of gevonden.
Meld het hier of mail naar ringonderzoek@gmail.com

Jan de Lang

Hi Jeroen,

Jij dacht aan een (hybride?) van een Australische eend. Die vind je even verderop in dit forum, alleen is dat de Nieuw-Zeelandse ondersoort ervan.
Het verschil met deze vogel is duidelijk.

De eend op deze foto is m.i. dezelfde als het afgebeelde vrouwtje Ringed Teal in "Wildfowl, an identification guide to the ducks, geese and swans op the world".

Ik ken geen andere, gelijkende soort.

Jeroen Nagtegaal

Als ik dit google, krijg ik plaatjes van deze: Nl naam Roodschoudertaling.
Ik zie zelf geen enkele gelijkenis met de vogel waar de determinatie vraag over gaat...
Groet, Jeroen Nagtegaal
Moderator subforum Ringen

Een geringde vogel gezien of gevonden.
Meld het hier of mail naar ringonderzoek@gmail.com

frankneijts

Citaat van: Jan de Lang op april 25, 2009, 18:05:26 PM
Hi Jeroen,

Jij dacht aan een (hybride?) van een Australische eend. Die vind je even verderop in dit forum, alleen is dat de Nieuw-Zeelandse ondersoort ervan.
Het verschil met deze vogel is duidelijk.

De eend op deze foto is m.i. dezelfde als het afgebeelde vrouwtje Ringed Teal in "Wildfowl, an identification guide to the ducks, geese and swans op the world".

Ik ken geen andere, gelijkende soort.

Dat laatste kan wel kloppen Jan, 't is namelijk een hybride. Nou kunnen hybrides erg tricky zijn en soms lijken ze niet eens op 1 van de oudervogels, dus is dat soms een heel gepuzzel. In elk geval is het géén vrouwtje Ringed Teal en ik denk ook niet dat die bij de paring betrokken is geweest.......
Groeten,

Frank

"When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead...
Remember what the dormouse said: feed your head!"
Grace Slick in 'White Rabbit'

Alcedo atthis

Look at this:

http://forum.waarneming.nl/smf/index.php?topic=69155.0


I think the Spaarnwoude bird looks like it could be the same combination (if you consider the fact that hybrids are often more variable than pure species).
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Jan de Lang

#8
Hybridisering bij eenden leidt in de discussie als regel tot een veelheid van mogelijkheden. Daarbij komt dat er individuele variëteit bestaat, dat het kan gaan om minder bekende/gedocumenteerde ondersoorten (zie b.v. discussie Australische eend) en dat rekening moet worden gehouden met overgangskleden naar gelang het seizoen en de leeftijd.
De vogel in situ kan dus verwarrend afwijken van het stereotype van de soort.
In het veld (en dus op de foto's!) kunnen kenmerken moeilijk zichtbaar worden of zelfs "verdwijnen" door de houding van de vogel, heersend licht etc. . Dat schept verwarring en bemoeilijkt de determinatie. Je moet dan ook andere gerenommeerde bronnen gebruiken om de vogel op soort, ondersoort of bekende geografische variëteit te benoemen. Bij een grote bandbreedte in de individuele variëteit van de soort wordt de puzzel moeilijker. Het is dan ook vaak moeilijk, zo niet ondoenlijk om zonder DNA-onderzoek onderscheid te maken met de hybride exemplaren. Omgekeerd zie je ook wel de benoeming van een regulier voorkomen tot hybride exemplaar.
Aan de hand van de zichtbare kenmerken op deze geplaatste foto's van de mystery bird van Spaarnwoude EN van de nageslagen ornithologische literatuur ben ik bij het vrouwtje van de Ringed Seal uitgekomen.
Toch zijn er verschillen tussen de illustraties en de foto'd en de afbeeldingen onderling. Daar kun je dus ook niet blind op vertrouwen.
De gegoogelde foto is van een onvolwassen Ringed Teal. Het volwassen vrouwtje verschilt daar nogal van.
Echter, je zou bij het adulte vrouwtje ook enigszins een schubtekening kunnen zien en de kleur van de flanken zou  minder donker-roodbruin mogen zijn.
Dat pleit er voor dat, zoals Jeroen al veronderstelde, de Australische eend toch heeft meegedaan aan het Romeinse banket.
Misschien is dat wel de oplossing: zet de hybrides á 'l orange op tafel en eet het probleem op.



Alcedo atthis

Jan, could you translate these thoughts... i am sorry but ui do not understand enough Dutch to be sure that I get the essence of what you are saying?
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Ted van der Knaap

Citaat van: Alcedo atthis op april 28, 2009, 09:21:04 AM
Jan, could you translate these thoughts... i am sorry but ui do not understand enough Dutch to be sure that I get the essence of what you are saying?

This is a very bad translation (done by the pc)..  ..perhaps you can understand "reading between the lines"


Hybridisering when ducks leads in the discussion as a rule to a multitude of possibilities. In addition, individual variety, that this could be less well-known / documented (see e.g. ondersoorten underwoodisaurus discussion duck), and that account should be taken with transitional dress according to the season and the age.
The on - the bird so confusing differ from the stereotype of the species.
In the field (and therefore on the photos!) attributes can be difficult or even "disappear" by the attitude of the bird, described to light and so on. This creates confusion and hampers context determination. You must, therefore, other reputable sources of energy use on the bird species, subspecies or known geographical variety. With a high - bandwidth in the variety of individual type of the puzzle is more difficult. Therefore, it is often difficult, if not impossible, without any DNA research to make a distinction with the hybrid instances. Conversely, you can see, also known as the appointment of a regular prevent hybrid instance.
On the basis of the visible attributes placed on these photos of the mystery of bird Spaarnwoude, and looked up the ornithologische of the literature in the ladies who i am of the ringed seal.
However, there are differences between the clip art and the foto'd and the pictures themselves. You do not turn a blind faith.
The gegoogelde is a photo of immature ringed teal. The mature ladies who quite different.
However, you would be the adult ladies who also somewhat leafscale a drawing to see and the color of the flanken would be less dark - roodbruin.
That would therefore call for that, as has already assumed, j. underwoodisaurus, however, the Duck took to the Roman banquet.
Perhaps that is the solution: restore the hybrides á l orange on the table and eat the problem.


groet-je, Ted van der Knaap (always learning!)

Alcedo atthis

Thanks for the effort Ted,
but no, sorry- it gets interestingly confusing!
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Calidris Alba

CiteerHybridisation in ducks leads in the discussion to a multitude of possibilities. Besides that theres the individual variation, the fact that there can be less known/documented (sub)species (such as the discussion about the Australian Shoveler) and the fact that one has to bear in mind that there are diffrent plumages in in diffrent seasons and ages.
The bird can be confusingly diffrent then the stereotype of the species.
In the field (and on photo's), characteristics can be obscured by the position of the bird, the light etc. That causes confusion and makes the identification more difficult. You have to use other sources to ID the bird to species, subspecies or geographic variety. In case there's a big bandwidth of individual variation, the puzzle becomes even harder. Often its hard, or even impossible, to ID a hybrid bird.
On base of visible features on the photo AND the literature I have I came to the conclusion that it's a female Ringed Teal.
Still there are diffrences in the illustrations and foto's. You can't trust blindly on that. De photo on google is a subadult Ringed Teal. An adult female looks different.
However, you could see a bit of a scaled plumage on adult female Ringed Teal and the flanks should be less dark reddish brown.
This could say that, as Jeroen said, a Australian Shoveler is one of the parents.

How's that, Jörn?
Daniël
Woonachtig in Colombia

Jan de Lang

Some early risers got into great length to get my contribution to this discussion translated, well before I got a chance to respond. Thanks a lot for that.
However I wonder whether zooborn (?) hybrid ducks, especialliy those that are (to me) suspect of originating from opposite sides of the globe, are worth the effort.
So name it ort eat it. Either way it's fun.

Alcedo atthis

Hi Jan,

In this case the basic information that this is a hybrid is easy to get- however it is also clear that this bird is a male from plumage  (so mixing of male and female patterns of different ducks doesn´t work to explain this bird). As this is a Wigeon x Shoveler and seems to be unringed, this could also be a natural hybrid, though this is not a likely combination in the wild .

Check out "Hybrid ducks- a contribution to an inventory" by Eric and Barry Gilham,1996, for a not too good photo, that nevertheless covers the crucial points of breast and flank coloration and head pattern ...Ringed teal x shoveler is also in one of the Gillham books- a very different looking bird.

Also check the hybrids Gadwall x shoveler, which show some similarities but also some differences:

Krakeend x Slobeend hybrid 1:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nanney/sets/72157600166604255/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nanney/480756223/in/photostream/ 

Krakeend x slobeend hybrid 2: 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12329229@N03/3132898449/


So I´d rather be worried about the constant introgression of domestic duck and goose genes into the mallard and greylag populations in the Netherlands than about the occasional hybrid of two native species....
but that´s a lot of duck a' l'orange for just one person....
;)
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Jan de Lang

#15
No doubt about the expert opinion.
Just for the sake of argument I´ll present my reflections at first sight of the photograph and the steps I took in de process of analysis.
Initially I felt convinced about a major contribution of the Ringed Teal mainly because of a quite resembling face of the adult female, gray bill, dark upperparts. Frankly I don´t know of any nonhybrid adult duck with such similarity in face pattern.
Coming to think of the non-matching parts with that of the adult female RS, the New Zealand Shoveler (ssp. variegata of the Australian sp.) fitted almost seamelessly into the picture.
Maybe this is an all too simple approach and one shouldn't analyse a hybrid duck as I did, which is like a jigsaw puzzle.
I am anxiously awaiting any comments.


Jan Harteman

#16
Citaat van: Jan de Lang op april 28, 2009, 19:49:02 PM
Initially I felt convinced about a major contribution of the Ringed Teal mainly because of a quite resembling face of the adult female, gray bill, dark upperparts. Frankly I don´t know of any nonhybrid adult duck with such similarity in face pattern.
Coming to think of the non-matching parts with that of the adult female RS, the New Zealand Shoveler (ssp. variegata of the Australian sp.) fitted almost seamelessly into the picture.

There's one duck species that would match better with its face pattern; the Baikal teal, Anas formosa.



However, there are lots of duck hybrids (mainly Teal / Shoveler / Wigeon / Pintail) with face patterns that could be compared with a Baikal-alike pattern.


Baikal teal (Anas formosa) x Northern pintail (Anas acuta)


Common teal (Anas crecca) x Northern pintail (Anas acuta)

The Spaarnwoude hybrid:



So, a Ringed teal could be excluded from this discussion in my oppinion.
By the way, this topic might be better removed to the hybrid discussionboard.

Alcedo atthis

#17
I took the liberty to compare the ducks from Spaarnwoude and Langbroek.

I think if you take into account the variation between different individual hybrids, we can agree that they are likely to be the same hybrid combination?

( that the variation in naturally occurring hybrids is often high can easily be seen here, for example:
http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/09E01A11.pdf
Mallard x Gadwall hybrid variability)

back to our birds from Spaarnwoude and Langbroek-this big shovelershaped bill suggests shoveler influence, as well as rusty coloration on flanks and orange on legs (only visible in the Spaarnwoude bird).
In the birds from Langbroek the beaks are dark with small paler bluegrey patches on the bill in one case.
In the Spaarnwoude bird there are marked pale bluegrey areas on the sides of the bill. The bill pattern shown by this bird is typical for several Wigeon hybrids, see this wigeon x teal for example:

http://ujihala.ld.infoseek.co.jp/020312/duckwexte.html

(naturally the bill shape is very different)

or this probable Baikal Teal x Eurasian Wigeon:

http://www.clanga.com/gallery/Ptaki%20rzadkie%20i%20nieliczne/1anafor_130209_mpolakowsk.jpg

http://www.birdwatching.pl/uploads/gallery/6/z19JNF0sqfn0nU1mRaQ28R3QoRn6quqfHsahAF1N.jpg

http://www.cezarypioro.pl/pub/upload/07466c0d4819d534c179f5a52e611632.jpg

Shoveler x Baikal teal (suggested due to head pattern) would show an all black bill, not something like the Spaarnwoude bird.

That this facial pattern of these hybrids  does occur in Wigeon x Shoveler, is mentioned and shown on photo in Gillham & Gillham, Hybrid ducks- (as said in the thread on the Langbroek hybrids)

and that the extention of rusty flank coloration on the breast occurs in shoveler hybrids is again demonstrated by the hybrid shoveler x Wigeon in Gillham & Gillham and also shown by the shoveler x gadwall hybrids 1 and 2 linked in this thread.



Wigeon traits are subtle in these birds, but the paleness of the forehead just above the bill in two birds (Spaaarnwoude and one Langbroek bird), the more wigeon like pointed rear end, size of the white patch on the rear flanks , and partially grey or greyish looking flanks are hints besides bill coloration


Therefore I still think these birds from Langbroek and Spaarnwoude

are shoveler x wigeon.





greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Alcedo atthis

Some more information on behaviour of the bird by Roy Slaterus, the photographer, who observed the bird for 45 minutes (I had asked him with which species it associated):
He answered:
In fact it associated with both Shoveler and Wigeon. Most of the time it was on water where it associated with shovelers, feeding in a shoveler-like manner, whereas when on land it foraged with a group of wigeon.
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Alcedo atthis

The hybrid combination shoveler x eurasian wigeon in the wild  is mentioned in here:

R. S. Palmer 1976. Handbook of North American birds. Vol. 2, pt. 1. Yale Univ. Press, New Haven, CT.

greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus