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Auteur Topic: siberische taling x slobeend?  (gelezen 912 keer)

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ajdees

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Gepost op: februari 03, 2009, 22:45:15 pm »

http://waarneming.nl/soort/photos/8704?fro...3&to=2009-02-03

Deze twee talinkjes vandaag bij Driebergen lijken op Siberische taling, maar:
-koppatroon te weinig uitgebreid
-roodbruine flanken
-mist vertikale witte flankstreep

Zou het siberische taling x slobeend kunnen zijn?
Gelogd
met vriendelijke groeten,
Albert Dees

Alcedo atthis

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #1 Gepost op: februari 03, 2009, 23:21:01 pm »

I think this could well be a variant of Slobeend x Krakeend, except for the stripe going down from the eye it is perfekt (and I have seen a hint of such a stripe in a few slobeend x krakeend hybrids)
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Alcedo atthis

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #2 Gepost op: februari 04, 2009, 09:07:28 am »

It is not so easy with those two hybrids, there seem to be also other possibilities:
Have been checking in
Gillham and Gillham (1996) -Hybrid ducks-a contribution to an inventory

they have a photo of a stuffed museum specimen teal x shoveler with that face pattern an d also wigeon x shoveler with a face pattern approaching this.

Generally speaking, the "Baikal Teal" face pattern is something that occurs in different hybrids without having a Baikal teal parentage. Here is a Gadwall x Mallard also showing this pattern  (Scroll down for the better photos):

http://www.aa093.domainkunden.de/forum/top...sp?TOPIC_ID=193


Concerning your ducks, are there any photos which show the speculum; and how was the breast pattern closeup?


 
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Jan Harteman

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #3 Gepost op: februari 06, 2009, 17:00:22 pm »

These two birds are hybrids Baikal teal (Anas formosa) x Eurasian wigeon (Anas penelope). I spoke to the breeder of these two drakes: he was not very happy that he could not capture the birds again...

Alcedo atthis

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #4 Gepost op: februari 07, 2009, 13:36:42 pm »

Jan,
Even if the breeder says so,
 i think this is an unlikely parentage as it does not explain some features of these ducks, the main ones being the rusty reddish brown flank coloration and the substantial snavel. This would both be explained by one parent being shoveler.

Where should these two features come from if it is is wigeon x baikal teal as the breeder thinks?

I do not say I have to be right with my previous suggestions- but these birds strike me as extremely odd looking for the proposed parentage.

So any more photos of these ducks showing speculum and size would be very interesting!!

(slobeend x siberische taling is also not out of question for me- i try to find out how males of that cross would look)
« Laatst bewerkt op: februari 07, 2009, 13:38:40 pm door Alcedo atthis »
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Jan Harteman

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #5 Gepost op: februari 07, 2009, 14:36:12 pm »

I have photographed this duck (and his brother) last October at that breeders' gardens. At that time, he told me the birds to be Northern shoveler X Gadwall (or was it wigeon?) hybrids.
Probably these hybrids are the same birds as those in the image at the top of this topic...
« Laatst bewerkt op: februari 08, 2009, 10:38:41 am door Jan Harteman »
Gelogd

Alcedo atthis

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #6 Gepost op: februari 07, 2009, 16:16:37 pm »

Jan,

 very interesting, if that is inded one of these same birds,

everything seems to fit for Northern shoveler x Eurasian wigeon!

(Did that breeder keep these possible parent species at that time?)

As I said in one of the previous mails there is a wigeon x shoveler museum specimen with a head pattern approaching this photographed in the Gilhams "Hybrid birds" .

the bird in your last photo has an all green shoveler like speculum and a blueish grey bill color as wigeon has (I wasn´t sure about bill colour in the initial photo in this thread as gloss of water on a bill could change color on a photo), also the overall  reddishbrown coloration resembles wigeon.
there is the bluegrey coverts in the wing like in shoveler , and the  feather above the speculum (changing color gradually from dark grey at base to white on tip) is just where the wigeon have a white and the shoveler a black one.

so this looks really good for Eurasian Wigeon  x Northern shoveler.
« Laatst bewerkt op: februari 07, 2009, 16:29:09 pm door Alcedo atthis »
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Jan Harteman

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #7 Gepost op: februari 08, 2009, 10:45:34 am »

This breeder has a very fine collection of waterfowl, kept in a very large enclosure (mainly closed aviaries). All possible species which are mentioned above are presented in this collection.

ajdees

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #8 Gepost op: februari 08, 2009, 23:30:27 pm »

I tried to find the birds again today, but they were gone.
Maybe the owner (or someone else) caught them?

There is a waterfowl collection very near by...

Albert
Gelogd
met vriendelijke groeten,
Albert Dees

Alcedo atthis

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #9 Gepost op: februari 09, 2009, 08:52:21 am »

Albert, do you have any other photos from the birds than those already posted?

any additional photo might help here.

Jan, maybe it is possible to check with the owner if he caught his birds back? maybe it is possible to get some photos from him?

I think, if these two males are indeed identical to the birds Jan saw, it should indeed be Slobeend x smient.
(assumed the birds are identical, it would explain all features seen)

but as long as we do not know that for sure there is room for some doubt.

cheers, Joern
« Laatst bewerkt op: februari 09, 2009, 13:07:08 pm door Alcedo atthis »
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Alcedo atthis

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #10 Gepost op: februari 09, 2009, 13:12:33 pm »

Albert

another question- did the bill of your birds appear bluegrey to you; or black?
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

ajdees

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #11 Gepost op: februari 09, 2009, 21:03:42 pm »

Ik zal de resterende foto's hier ook even neerzetten.
Komen ze:
Gelogd
met vriendelijke groeten,
Albert Dees

ajdees

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #12 Gepost op: februari 09, 2009, 21:09:00 pm »

twee....
niet dus.
Nou kan ik ineens geen jpeg's meer uploaden??? :huh:

"Je kunt niet dit type bestanden uploaden"
 
Gelogd
met vriendelijke groeten,
Albert Dees

JohanvantBosch

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #13 Gepost op: februari 09, 2009, 21:19:49 pm »

Citaat
twee....
niet dus.
Nou kan ik ineens geen jpeg's meer uploaden??? :huh:

"Je kunt niet dit type bestanden uploaden"
lijkt me een kwestie van nog eens proberen...

ajdees

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #14 Gepost op: februari 09, 2009, 21:35:05 pm »

http://s711.photobucket.com/albums/ww114/a...iden%20feb2009/

Ik heb ze op Photobucket gezet. Als i niet te onhandig ben geweest doet bovenstaande link het.
Gelogd
met vriendelijke groeten,
Albert Dees

ajdees

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #15 Gepost op: februari 09, 2009, 21:44:54 pm »

Albert

another question- did the bill of your birds appear bluegrey to you; or black?
----
Helaas heb ik niet zo gedetailleerd gekeken :sorry:

Op de foto's lijken de snavels zwart, met bij 1 van de 2 eenden een vaag begrensde blauw-grijze vlek aan de basis en bij de andere eend een klein licht vlekje bij het neusgat.

groet,
Albert
Gelogd
met vriendelijke groeten,
Albert Dees

Alcedo atthis

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #16 Gepost op: februari 10, 2009, 10:46:10 am »

Albert and Jan,

 the series of these photos given in the link by Albert helps a lot and makes it clear that these birds are indeed Northern Shoveler x Eurasian Wigeon.

The rereading on hybrids Shoveler x Wigeon in Gillham & Gillham (1996) made it clear there are at least 3 species combinations that show this head pattern:

Baikal Teal x Northern Shoveler
Eurasian Teal x Northern Shoveler
Eurasian Wigeon x Northern Shoveler

In the above mentioned book are photos from museum skins of the latter 2 hybrids, which both come close in terms of head pattern but body coloration is not fully visible (Dark photograph with lots of museum skins).

Therefore my question for bill coloration: The shoveler group has a tendency to produce mainly or all black bills in hybrids (At least in breeding plumage males), even when hybridized with species with a light coloured bill (Like mallard or a wigeon species).
If there are some light areas on the bill, they come near the bill coloration of the other parent, so yellowish in a hybrid with Mallard, blueish in a hybrid with a wigeon species. see this Mallard x Shoveler for example:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=show...picture_id=1476

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=show...picture_id=1434

The grey on the back (scapulars and part of the flanks of the bird indicates that the wigeon parent can only be Eurasian wigeon.

(The irreguar white patch on the front of the neck seen in the last photo Albert attached  is also visible in the wigeon x shoveler hybrid in the Gillham book)


That Gadwall x Shoveler looks different can be seen here:

http://forum.waarneming.nl/forum/index.php?showtopic=68172

Most of these have no dark stripe over the cheek, as in this link, but a few gadwall xshoveler can show such a stripe.
« Laatst bewerkt op: februari 10, 2009, 13:34:25 pm door Alcedo atthis »
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Jan Harteman

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #17 Gepost op: februari 10, 2009, 23:50:08 pm »

More hybrids with Baikal-like-pattern:

Baikal teal X Northern pintail


Common teal X Northern pintail

Alcedo atthis

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« Reactie #18 Gepost op: februari 11, 2009, 09:27:05 am »

Citaat
More hybrids with Baikal-like-pattern:

Baikal teal X Northern pintail


Common teal X Northern pintail
Yes, I know-- I meant:

The rereading on hybrids Shoveler x Wigeon in Gillham & Gillham (1996) made it clear there are at least 3 species combinations involving NORTHERN SHOVELER that show this head pattern:

Baikal Teal x Northern Shoveler
Eurasian Teal x Northern Shoveler
Eurasian Wigeon x Northern Shoveler

Because I think the shoveler-like bill and the flank pattern make clear Northern shoveler is involved in the hybrids in this thread.

The bluegrey patches on the bill and the amount and distribution of grey on the body make the other parent of the bird Euraisan wigeon to me. Each hybrid combination involving two blackbilled species has to be excluded with this in my experience.
(the whitish patch at the base of the neck just above the breast is a further indication for hybrid Eurasian Wigeon  x Northern Shoveler, as the Museum specimen in the Gillham book has this white patch also).

so that´s my assessment of the parentage of these birds posted by Albert...
I am sorry if it wasn't clear before.
« Laatst bewerkt op: februari 11, 2009, 10:32:20 am door Alcedo atthis »
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Alcedo atthis

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #19 Gepost op: februari 11, 2009, 10:43:29 am »

There are many more hybrids with the typical Baikal teal head pattern element, a dark stripe going downwards from the eye.

In the Gillham book this is referred to as "Briddling".

Here are more birds with a hint of this pattern:

A mallard x Gadwall-scroll down to see the better pictures:

http://www.vso-internet.de/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=193

A Mallard x Eurasian Wigeon (The pale cheek area being often much reduced in Mallard x Wigeon, and the dark stripe fairly broad- so it is not so obvious)

http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/hybrid/aplapenm.shtml

An unknown hybrid (I assume that this is not a first generation hybrid and may contain genes of Eurasian teal, Mallard and Speckled teal- not clearly visible from the appearance of the bird but such crosses do not seem uncommon in France-made by duck hunters to be used as life decoys)

http://picasaweb.google.com/cotentinphot/O...159972181506658

http://picasaweb.google.com/cotentinphot/O...159723073403410
 
« Laatst bewerkt op: februari 11, 2009, 10:44:47 am door Alcedo atthis »
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

ajdees

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #20 Gepost op: februari 19, 2009, 22:45:13 pm »

ok,
Slobeend x Smient dus.

Hartelijk dank voor de leerzame discussie!

Deze hybride kan ik nog niet invoeren. Kan een admin daar misschien voor zorgen?

Vriendelijke groet,
Albert Dees
Gelogd
met vriendelijke groeten,
Albert Dees

JohanvantBosch

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siberische taling x slobeend?
« Reactie #21 Gepost op: februari 20, 2009, 09:55:19 am »

Citaat
ok,
Slobeend x Smient dus.

Hartelijk dank voor de leerzame discussie!

Deze hybride kan ik nog niet invoeren. Kan een admin daar misschien voor zorgen?

Vriendelijke groet,
Albert Dees
Ik probeer m en andere ontbrekende hybriden uit dit forum vanavond aan te maken.

EDIT: slobeend x smient is er nu

http://waarneming.nl/soort/info/106815
« Laatst bewerkt op: februari 20, 2009, 10:09:24 am door JohanvantBosch »
Gelogd
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