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Auteur Topic: grauw x brand  (gelezen 419 keer)

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heuvelsdoorn

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« Gepost op: november 24, 2007, 19:37:57 pm »

Deze gans lijkt iets te hebben van grauwe en brandgans.

Is dit een hybride van deze wilde soorten of ook van soep?

BvD
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Jeroen Nagtegaal

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« Reactie #1 Gepost op: november 24, 2007, 19:55:12 pm »

Candees x kol doet me aan denken,
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Groet, Jeroen Nagtegaal
Moderator subforum Ringen

Een geringde vogel gezien of gevonden.
Meld het hier of mail naar ringonderzoek@gmail.com

Jan Harteman

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« Reactie #2 Gepost op: november 24, 2007, 20:03:08 pm »

Er zit naar mijn idee Zwaangans bloed is, maar dan wel gedomesticeerd (Knobbelgans dus).  

henkjanvdkolk

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« Reactie #3 Gepost op: november 24, 2007, 20:05:51 pm »

knobbelgans/zwaangans x kolgans

Lijkt mij een goede optie
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Henk-Jan van der Kolk

heuvelsdoorn

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« Reactie #4 Gepost op: november 24, 2007, 20:08:00 pm »

Nog een foto, let vooral op de gele snavel tov de rose vd soep.
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heuvelsdoorn

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« Reactie #5 Gepost op: november 24, 2007, 20:14:07 pm »

vooraanzicht
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Alcedo atthis

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« Reactie #6 Gepost op: november 25, 2007, 12:07:54 pm »

Why not Anser indicus x Anser cygnoides (domestic variant Knobbelgans)?

The yellowish orange bill and legs, and the pale greyish appearance of the wings hint to indicus as one parent; and in the pattern it is very similar to hybrids Anser indicus x Anser cygnoides( wild form).
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Jörn Lehmhus

Alcedo atthis

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« Reactie #7 Gepost op: november 25, 2007, 13:52:04 pm »

For comparison:

 Grauwe x Brand weerd diskutiert in dit thread her:

http://forum.waarneming.nl/forum/index.php?showtopic=38895

 
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

gjcaspers

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« Reactie #8 Gepost op: november 25, 2007, 14:54:26 pm »

Citaat
Why not Anser indicus x Anser cygnoides (domestic variant Knobbelgans)?

The yellowish orange bill and legs, and the pale greyish appearance of the wings hint to indicus as one parent; and in the pattern it is very similar to hybrids Anser indicus x Anser cygnoides( wild form).
I think it's a hybrid domestic goose (Anser anser) x Chinese goose (A. cygnoides). The bird looks too massively built for a Bar-headed hybrid. The pale greyish color, and the large width of the white at the base of the bill, are probably caused by possession of one copy of the sex-linked dilution factor, from the domestic parent.

Ik denk dat het een hybride tamme (Anser anser) x knobbelgans (A. cygnoides) is. De vogel ziet er te massief gebouwd uit voor een Indische Gans-hybride. De bleekgrijze kleur, en de breedte van het wit aan de snavelbasis, worden waarschijnlijk veroorzaakt door het bezit van één kopie van de geslachtsgebonden kleurverdunningsfactor, van de tamme ouder.

For a domestic goose with the sex-linked dilution factor, see http://www.albc-usa.org/cpl/waterfowl/pilgrim.html
« Laatst bewerkt op: november 25, 2007, 15:11:16 pm door gjcaspers »
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Groet,
Gert-Jan Caspers

heuvelsdoorn

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« Reactie #9 Gepost op: november 25, 2007, 17:47:12 pm »

Citaat
Ik denk dat het een hybride tamme (Anser anser) x knobbelgans (A. cygnoides) is.

Van die knobbelgans ben ik nu overtuigd, maar ik vraag me af waar die toch wel opmerkelijk gele snavel vandaan komt. Knobbelgans heeft normaal toch geen gele snavel? Natuurlijk kan een of meerdere kopieën van de geslachtsgebonden kleurverdunningsfactoren (mooi woord trouwens ;) ) de snavel dusdanig beïnvloedt hebben dat deze gelig wordt.
De indische gans daarintegen heeft vanzichzelf al een gele snavel, die erg veel lijkt op deze, en ook de donkere streep van kop naar rug.

Citaat
Why not Anser indicus x Anser cygnoides (domestic variant Knobbelgans)?

The yellowish orange bill and legs, and the pale greyish appearance of the wings hint to indicus as one parent; and in the pattern it is very similar to hybrids Anser indicus x Anser cygnoides( wild form).

I think this is the right choice, it explains the yellow bill wich is a important mark.
Thanks, :duim:






 
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gjcaspers

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« Reactie #10 Gepost op: november 26, 2007, 10:24:21 am »

I think the bill looks fine for a Greylag/domestic x Chinese Goose hybrid; it's only coincidental that it's somewhat patterned like a Bar-headed Goose's bill. I'm not aware of any influence of sex-linked dilution on bill colour.

Just look at pictures of domestic geese with a single dose of sex-linked dilution...

http://www.luckyhit.net/geese.htm
http://www.albc-usa.org/cpl/waterfowl/pilgrim.html

(In this case it's female Pilgrim geese, but it doesn't need to be such a rare breed: white breeds like the Embden also have sex-linked dilution, in combination with pied.)

...then superimpose the Chinese goose's influences (dark hindneck, knob at base of bill), and you would get a goose that looks very much like the goose in the photos.

I see nothing of a Bar-headed Goose's head/neck pattern in this goose. I do see a massive goose with a rather long and thick bill, and a thick, strongly furrowed neck. Could a Bar-headed x Chinese Goose hybrid really look like this?
Gelogd
Groet,
Gert-Jan Caspers

Alcedo atthis

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« Reactie #11 Gepost op: november 27, 2007, 10:23:17 am »

Compare with the domestic geese in the 1st picture,

 the neck isn´t that thick compared with those and the beak looks rather slender to the tip (in comparison) and pale orange.

Please note also that barheaded x swan goose can show the swan goose (and juvenile barheaded goose ) neck and head pattern; which is similar in distribution of light and dark coloration; and simpler than the adult barheaded goose head pattern.

I have a copy of a photo which shows such a hybrid; but as it is not mine I will have to ask the photographer if he allows it to be shown here. Answer amy take some days.

Also; if you superimpose the chinese goose colour pattern on a domestic greylag with some colour dilution;  shouldn´t then either the whole goose be colour diluted (So also the neck pattern, which isn´t here) ; or the whole goose should be much darker.
Whereas the colour pattern fits well to Chinese goose x Barheaded goose.

and also the relatively yellowish toned bill and legs are rather like barheaded, Even a hybrid with a colour diluted domestic doesn´t change the darker orange in bill and legs; I´d think?
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

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« Reactie #12 Gepost op: november 27, 2007, 17:03:52 pm »

Here are some hybrids of wildtype swan goose with barheaded goose, see what you think
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Jan Harteman

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« Reactie #13 Gepost op: november 27, 2007, 17:37:37 pm »

Is it known if they are
A. cygnoides X A. indicus or
A. indicus X A. cygnoides?
« Laatst bewerkt op: november 27, 2007, 19:38:19 pm door Jan Harteman »
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« Reactie #14 Gepost op: november 27, 2007, 18:00:40 pm »

No, sorry... I think that wasn't clear ... a group of swan geese was kept together with a group of barheaded geese in the same enclosure , and some of the young ended up to be hybrids.
So I am also not sure if all of these had the same two individuals as parents.
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

gjcaspers

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« Reactie #15 Gepost op: november 28, 2007, 12:12:36 pm »

Well, of course the neck and bill of the hybrid goose are not as thick as those of the domestic geese; it is, after all, still a Swan Goose hybrid. They are, however, still thicker than those of the Bar-headed x Swan Goose hybrids in your photos. This could be explained away though, by the difference between a domesticated and a wildtype Swan Goose as a parent.

I notice a difference in the head patterns: whereas all of your Bar-headed x Swan Goose hybrids show an indentation between where the crossbars of the Bar-headed Goose would be (a sort of Geheimratsecken), the goose in this topic displays a smooth, straight line, just like a Swan Goose.

I don’t know to what extent this type of colour dilution would affect the Swan Goose neck stripe. If you look at the buff African Goose (buff dilution of Anser cygnoides) and Frankische goose (blue dilution of A. anser) in the next link, you see that body colour is much more diluted than neck colour:
http://www.watervogels.nl/downloads/gedome...de%20ganzen.pdf

Yellowish-orange bill and legs in domestic Greylag x Swan Goose hybrids are not unheard of: in the Steinbacher Goose, a breed of hybrid origin, yellowish-orange bill and legs are a breed characteristic:
http://www.ac-bueroservice.de/gefluegel/st...r_kampfgans.htm

(Interestingly, the blue-diluted bird in the pictures appears to have yellower bill and legs than the grey ones.)

Some hybrid domestic x Chinese Goose (non-diluted colour) for good measure (to get a general impression of this hybrid):
http://www.hainaultforest.co.uk/5Water%20birds.htm  (pic 9)
http://www.pbase.com/zeiler/image/41969922
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_quer...+0000+0207+0094


However, something I hadn’t noticed earlier: the goose of this topic does appear to have something of the Bar-headed Goose throat pattern, especially in the second photo...  but I’m still not convinced...
 
Gelogd
Groet,
Gert-Jan Caspers

heuvelsdoorn

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« Reactie #16 Gepost op: november 28, 2007, 13:41:55 pm »

Here are some new pic's for a closer look.

 
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heuvelsdoorn

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« Reactie #17 Gepost op: november 28, 2007, 13:42:54 pm »

Rear
« Laatst bewerkt op: november 28, 2007, 15:24:09 pm door heuvelsdoorn »
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heuvelsdoorn

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« Reactie #18 Gepost op: november 28, 2007, 15:23:26 pm »

another
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Alcedo atthis

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« Reactie #19 Gepost op: november 28, 2007, 17:01:08 pm »


Here is another goose which I think is probably wildtype Swan Goose x Barheaded Goose:

http://www.gobirding.eu/Images/Geese/Hybri...%20(A3)%20L.JPG

Also I think from the last photos that the mystery goose from this thread might have some white feathers in the right position on the head.
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

heuvelsdoorn

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« Reactie #20 Gepost op: november 29, 2007, 09:12:54 am »

Thanks everybody for helping me out. :duim:

The type "Swan Goose x Barheaded Goose" wasn't mentioned in the database till yet. So this is the first one ever registered in the Netherlands as far as I know.

I,m proud and Alcedo atthis: thanks for your professional expertise to clear this up. :duim:  
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Alcedo atthis

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« Reactie #21 Gepost op: december 03, 2007, 13:34:27 pm »

De nada! I think this is the correct ID;
as I have not seen this hybrid with the domestic variant before , I can not be 100% sure.


And thanks Gerd-Jan for valuable discussion points to think about !  

Oh; and this link with the buff African Goose (buff dilution of Anser cygnoides) and Frankische goose (blue dilution of A. anser) do not work for me :
http://www.watervogels.nl/downloads/gedome...de%20ganzen.pdf

but I´d like to see this also.
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

gjcaspers

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« Reactie #22 Gepost op: december 04, 2007, 16:13:30 pm »

Citaat
Oh; and this link with the buff African Goose (buff dilution of Anser cygnoides) and Frankische goose (blue dilution of A. anser) do not work for me :
http://www.watervogels.nl/downloads/gedome...de%20ganzen.pdf

but I´d like to see this also.
Maybe you have problems with deep links to large pdf files?  It might work if you go to http://www.watervogels.nl/ then choose "Ganzenrassen" then click the second "hier".
Gelogd
Groet,
Gert-Jan Caspers

Alcedo atthis

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« Reactie #23 Gepost op: december 04, 2007, 17:47:54 pm »

Thanks Gerd-Jan, That worked!
 
Gelogd
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Jörn Lehmhus

Alcedo atthis

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« Reactie #24 Gepost op: juni 24, 2008, 12:25:23 pm »

Hi, on this link there is a photo of a barheaded goose first and then, if you scroll down, three photos of Barheaded Goose x Chinese goose .


http://bodensee-ornis.de/arten/artenliste/details/51/

some more white on the sides of the neck, but otherwise coloration close to the original bird in this thread here.
« Laatst bewerkt op: juni 24, 2008, 12:27:22 pm door Alcedo atthis »
Gelogd
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GijsB

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« Reactie #25 Gepost op: juni 24, 2008, 18:17:50 pm »

It look's like a soepgans...
maybe it is a soepgans.
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gjcaspers

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« Reactie #26 Gepost op: juni 25, 2008, 10:48:07 am »

Citaat
Hi, on this link there is a photo of a barheaded goose first and then, if you scroll down, three photos of Barheaded Goose x Chinese goose .


http://bodensee-ornis.de/arten/artenliste/details/51/

some more white on the sides of the neck, but otherwise coloration close to the original bird in this thread here.
Yes, this one does resemble the original bird in this thread very much; far more than the wild-type Swan Goose x Bar-headed Goose hybrids that you showed earlier. The white side-stripe of the Bar-headed's neck pattern is clearly visible in this hybrid, however, while that isn't the case in the original bird in this thread; so expression of this trait is apparently variable in the hybrids.
Gelogd
Groet,
Gert-Jan Caspers
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