Goose hybrid -emperor x snow?

Gestart door Alcedo atthis, april 13, 2007, 12:56:53 PM

Vorige topic - Volgende topic

Alcedo atthis

greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

laatvlieger

I think I can't agree on that one. For emperor goose you would, like you said before, expect some dark undertailfeathers. Furthermore you can see truly brown feathers on the sides. I think this could be a cross between snowgoose and a Anser. Probably greylag even more probably a domestic greylag.

But there are some strange features on this bird: The longer tertials suggest either ross' or snowy goose. The black bill edge suggest snowy, but as some of the people on birdpix already mentioned it looks like the bird has some blue warts at the basis of the bill, which is good for ross'.
Then the pattern on the mantle is also a bit peculiar.
Orange legs. A bill that has some pink and orange colours and a black nail. And then the brown and white flanks...  
Groet,

Wouter Teunissen


Mijn Weblog: http://birdboredom.blogspot.com/

Jos Welbedacht

#2
I think there is no part of Ross' Goose in this bird because of the great appearence of this Goose. Bill is too long, and the spots are not clearly vissible. Beside, dark Ross' Geeze are realy rare in this world.
It seems clear to me the first part is a Snow Goose.
The other part is not a Emperor Goose to me, as Wouter mentioned.
But an Anser like Greylag or White-Fronted is strange too.
The mantle pattern is not good enough, and the dark pattern on the flanks is different from the White-Fronted Geeze in the picture.

Ross' Goose, Remarkeble bird, realy different from greater Anser Geeze:

Jos Welbedacht, Groningen
I said you could find me where the Nighthawks fly - dEUS: One advice, Space
 

Alcedo atthis

#3
Not sure if I am right there,
but I think if there is some dark coloration on several  undertail feathers, it means Emperor goose involvement.
However this does perhaps not generally mean that if they are whole white there can be no Emperor goose involvement?

See this bird observed on Iceland:

http://www.hi.is/~yannk/myndir/rarity/db_anscae020505.jpg


the tertials also indicate snow goose (or Ross goose) here...

But where does the scaly feather pattern of tzhe smaller feathers on the mantle and above the wings come from ?   I can only imagine emperor goose there?

Also with the bill, in both these birds the lower mandible seems to be black? black lower mandile and pinkish coloration on part of upper mandible would fit to emperor goose....

This is an odd bird indeed
(but feathers of flanks do look greyish on my monitor, not brownish)



finaly there is a small photo of a bird that might be similar, at this site (under escapes 2003, labeled as emperor x greylag hybrid)

http://home.clara.net/ammodytes/NEWS2003Escapes.htm
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

laatvlieger

I can't explain why, but the bird from iceland and the other bird you are referring to, look to me immediately as if there's some emperor goose involved. But somehow this is not the case for the first bird. Maybe because of its posture and would it look completely different if sits in an other way.
(and apart from this, both birds show some dark spots on the undertail, but the birdpix bird doesn't. Although maybe this is not a good character if it lacks. )  
Groet,

Wouter Teunissen


Mijn Weblog: http://birdboredom.blogspot.com/

Alcedo atthis

#5
CiteerI can't explain why, but the bird from iceland and the other bird you are referring to, look to me immediately as if there's some emperor goose involved. But somehow this is not the case for the first bird. Maybe because of its posture and would it look completely different if sits in an other way.
(and apart from this, both birds show some dark spots on the undertail, but the birdpix bird doesn't. Although maybe this is not a good character if it lacks. )
yes, you are right there concerning the dark spots on the other 2 birds...

i still feel the birdpix bird would have emperor goose genes, but I could also be wrong...
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Jos Welbedacht

#6
Alright, it's possible this bird is a bit of an Emperor Goose.
I discoverd something strange: Our bird has a white belly, while both Emperor and Snow Geeze have a dark belly, unless the Snow is a White morph Snow Goose, but the tertials are from blue morph.
Or did you mean the same, Wouter?

CiteerAnd then the brown and white flanks...

Jos Welbedacht, Groningen
I said you could find me where the Nighthawks fly - dEUS: One advice, Space
 

Alcedo atthis

CiteerAlright, it's possible this bird is a bit of an Emperor Goose.
I discoverd something strange: Our bird has a white belly, while both Emperor and Snow Geeze have a dark belly, unless the Snow is a White morph Snow Goose, but the tertials are from blue morph.
Or did you mean the same, Wouter?

Hybrids of white snow goose x other species often have a white belly, but tertials of blue phase Snowgoose in my experience.  (for example Anser indicus x Anser caerulescens also show this)

It is like the pattern of blue phase snow hidden in the white pase also? so that it is seen if a white phase snow hybridizes with another Anser goose species which has some dark pigments in that area.

That might be an explanation...
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

laatvlieger

#8
No I didn't. I presumed the snowy goose to be a white morph.

I do see some emperor goose features now. I checked the mantle pattern and I agree it would probably fit best on a emperor goose. Also some emperor geese have some blueish on the basis of the bill. Then the uppertail feathers are all white. In a Anser hybrid you would probably expect some grey blurr on the uppertail.

Nevertheless for some reason I'm still not a hundred percent convinced..
Groet,

Wouter Teunissen


Mijn Weblog: http://birdboredom.blogspot.com/

laatvlieger

Citeer


Hybrids of white snow goose x other species often have a white belly, but tertials of blue phase Snowgoose in my experience.  (for example Anser indicus x Anser caerulescens also show this)
Yes, I have seen more pictures with this as well, so I wasn't to much surpised about it. And also in the wild apparently you ca find intermediates between the tho phases.  
Groet,

Wouter Teunissen


Mijn Weblog: http://birdboredom.blogspot.com/

Alcedo atthis

Citeer

Nevertheless for some reason I'm still not a hundred percent convinced..
I think to get 100% of  all these  hybrids correct we´d have to get some DNA samples from these oddities    ;)  
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Jos Welbedacht

I think your explanation is a good one.
All Snow Geeze have some Genes for the remarkable tertials.
Interesting material to study, and to discover.
Jos Welbedacht, Groningen
I said you could find me where the Nighthawks fly - dEUS: One advice, Space