Smient x Pijlstaart?

Gestart door Gerben Mensink, mei 04, 2009, 15:14:42 PM

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Gerben Mensink

Vanochtend vond ik deze vogel op het Kampereiland, Overijssel. Raar ding ??? Ik dacht zelf aan Smient x Pijlstaart. Maar zeker weten .....
groet,
Gerben Mensink

Lonnie Bregman

Groeten, Lonnie Bregman

Vincent Hart

Kopvorm en tekening van kop en (foto 2) hals lijken inderdaad op Pijlstaart te wijzen.

Zie ook de foto van Luuk Punt hier:
http://www.dutchbirding.nl/gallery.php?p=bigpic&gal=4&fid=285&page=2
Groet, Vincent


Als je goed om je heen kijkt
zie je dat alles gekleurd is                    K. Schippers

Gerben Mensink

De lange nek en de grootte sluiten wat mij betreft Smient X Wintertaling uit. De vogel lijkt veel op de Smient x Pijlstaart op de foto van Luuk Punt. Tenzij er betere alternatieven komen hou ik het daar dus maar bij.
groet,
Gerben Mensink

Alcedo atthis

I am not sure with these two pictures...

it could also be a Wigeon hybrid or backcross involving American wigeon. Theree seems to be a pale stripoe going over crown and nape which would be an odd pattern for wigeon x pintail. also body coloration and bill shape on these photos do not look different to Wigeon

It reminds me more of this mystery wigeon from Japan which probably has american wigeon blood, (but is then probably not an F1 hybrid?)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ken_san/83692681/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ken_san/83744368/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ken_san/83744417/in/photostream/

Here are some more pictures of more typical hybrids Eurasian x American wigeon:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/hybridbirds/discuss/72157601805249895/
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Gerben Mensink

Here is another picture of the same bird. It seems to have quite long tailfeathers. To me, this points to Pintail. If the other part is Wigeon of American wigeon I don't know.
In the field I haven't noticed the pale stripe across the crown and nape. But I haven't looked that carefully. It may also be an effect of cropping the picture or the poor quality of digiscoping (in my case ;))
groet,
Gerben Mensink

Vincent Hart

@Gerben: Obviously, at least one of 'your' duck's parents was a eurasian wigeon. As Jorn says, nearly all visible features are identical to pure wigeon. The tail is long but imho not overly long for a pure wigeon.

As far as I'm concerned, the features separating your bird from a pure wigeon are the following:
1) Bill shape. I disagree with Jorn here. Whilst this bird for me has a rather long, slender bill (best visible in pic 2), pure wigeon in contrast typically show a rather stubby bill when compared to most dabbling ducks. Apart from the black lower mandible, which both eurasian/american wigeon and pintail show, bill colouration is hard to discern from these pics.
2) Additionally, the top slope of the upper mandible of this bird is more or less continuous with the slope of its forehead (again, see pic 2). In pure wigeon, I would expect a more apparent change of angle between upper mandible and a rather acute (vertical) forehead. Both this feature and bill shape seem intermediate between wigeon and pintail to me.
3) Head and neck shape. Head seems to be slender (again, reminicent of pintail but different from the plump head of wigeon). Neck seems to be quite long (huge distance following the birds contours from lower breast to chin: pro pintail, contra wigeon). Compare both head and neck shape to the female type eurasian wigeon next to it in pic 2.
4) Head colouration. Reminicent of american wigeon (green flash over the eye) but a) features 1-3 differ from both wigeon species whilst body colouration is (nearly) identical to that of euro wigeon and b) as Jorn has illustrated quite a few times before, head colouration in hybrid ducks can show characters neither of the parents show, for instance quite a few hybrids show baikal teal-like head colouration even though in fact neither of its parents was Anas formosa. 

As this bird closely resembles a wigeon, the only anomalies being colouration of head and shape of head/bill/neck, I will tentatively suggest (wigeon) X (wigeon x pintail).  8)
Groet, Vincent


Als je goed om je heen kijkt
zie je dat alles gekleurd is                    K. Schippers

Alcedo atthis

#7
Citaat van: Gerben Mensink op mei 05, 2009, 18:10:09 PM
Here is another picture of the same bird. It seems to have quite long tailfeathers. To me, this points to Pintail. If the other part is Wigeon of American wigeon I don't know.
In the field I haven't noticed the pale stripe across the crown and nape. But I haven't looked that carefully. It may also be an effect of cropping the picture or the poor quality of digiscoping (in my case ;))

Well , if the pale stripe isn´t there it might indeed hint to wigeon x pintail-- but I am not 100% sure from these photos.

I also can´t exclude Vincents idea of a backcross to explain the crown stripe if it was there.

On the new photo however there is a feature that might indeed be better explained by pintail involvement- there seem to be darker looking scapulars (maybe darkcentered?) in the odd bird .
also one feature on one of the initial photos that i overlooked before may be due to pintail involvement-the breast looks lighter than the flanks? This should not be so in a hybrid of 2 wigeon species, but would be OK for wigeon x Pintail.

Concerning Vincents comments on the bill, I am not really sure if this is visible for me.

In my opinion we need more detailed photos to come to a safe conclusion here .

greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Vincent Hart

Hi Jorn,


Interesting points about the scapulars and breast colouration. Of course you're right we cannot be certain of this birds true identity based on these pics. Unfortunately. Still, most probably wigeon x pintail or wxp X wigeon imho. Any more pics, Gerben?
Groet, Vincent


Als je goed om je heen kijkt
zie je dat alles gekleurd is                    K. Schippers

Gerben Mensink

I'm sorry, I have no more pictures of this bird.
groet,
Gerben Mensink

Alcedo atthis

Gerben, that is a pity.

Another point, there is a lot of black at the chin , not so typical for crosses between wigeons,
but occurring in wigeon x pintail.

See here for comparison:

http://www.dutchbirding.nl/images/fotos/fotoid284.jpg

So Vincent, though we can never be sure I am thinking more and more like you probably Wigeon x Pintail.
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus