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Auteur Topic: Mandarin Duck hybrids  (gelezen 1957 keer)

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gjcaspers

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Gepost op: januari 24, 2008, 12:41:14 pm »

It has often been claimed that Mandarin Ducks cannot hybridize with other duck species, due to chromosomal rearrangements in the Mandarin Duck lineage. Yet I have also heard claims that Mandarin Ducks do hybridize with at least Wood Ducks.

Does anyone have definite data on proven Mandarin Duck hybrids?
« Laatst bewerkt op: januari 24, 2008, 12:43:11 pm door gjcaspers »
Gelogd
Groet,
Gert-Jan Caspers

tekenaar

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Reactie #1 Gepost op: januari 24, 2008, 13:02:23 pm »

I was once told that the brown (white) mutation from mandarin has been transferred to wood duck by deliberately hybridising the species. This proved to be based on the opinion of an animal keeper who has experience with Australian finches (where this is really has been done), but not on any hard evidence. It is much more likely that the brown mutation happened independently in both duck species (as similar mutations are known from a very wide range of bird species). I personally never saw a mandarin hybrid and doupt if they exist. Being the most frequently kept duck besides mallard one would expect to see a hybrid or hear about it once in a while, but this is not the case.  
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Paul Veenvliet
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Alcedo atthis

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Reactie #2 Gepost op: januari 24, 2008, 14:10:04 pm »

No I do not have any data or photos of such hybrids.

A few times I have received or seen photos of birds which were said to be mandarin hybrids.
Some of these were in fact Mandarin intersexes, others were call ducks with odd colour patterns.

Also in the books of the Gillham brothers the evidence on hybrids Mandarin with other species is doubtfull in my opinion.They mention one case of hybrid Laysan duck x mandarin, but no photos and the birds were blind and died early.

Jan Harteman has birds on his Hybrids website of which he says they are hybrids Mandarin x Shelduck. (To me these look much more like hybrids wood duck x shelduck, looking at head pattern, beak pattern and coloration of undertail coverts)-So please,  Jan,  maybe you can shed light on this????????

 
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Jan Harteman

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Reactie #3 Gepost op: januari 24, 2008, 18:21:00 pm »

Personally, I have never seen -- or read about -- any Mandarin hybrid, except one.
The next photos have been taken in the former private collection of the dutch Dr. Siwo R. de Kloet, who lives in the USA.



I have met Dr. Siwo de Kloet once in 2006. He is aware of  chromosomal rearrangements in the Mandarin Ducks, but still he did experience (unconscious) crossbreeding of Mandarin duck X Common shelduck. Who am I to have any doubts about the experience of this genetics specialist...  :huh:
(but I admit that I do not know about all details according DNA/ genetic analysis... I'm not a scientist)

Dr. Siwo R. de Kloet currently is Prof. Emeritus Biological Science at the Florida State University and Research Director of Animal Genetics at Avian Biotech International, Tallahassee, FL, USA.
More information about him and his publications: http://www.avianbiotech.com/drdeKloet.htm
« Laatst bewerkt op: januari 24, 2008, 18:22:28 pm door Jan Harteman »
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Alcedo atthis

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Reactie #4 Gepost op: januari 25, 2008, 10:48:24 am »

Dear Jan,

many thanks...
when I read the name, I remembered you had given me that information some time ago in a mail  (I think I had deleted that accidentally) .

well, I am a scientist; and as that I can only say don´t always believe the scientists ;)

Seriously, what is letting me doubt the ID is on the one hand the extreme similarity of these birds to a bird described as Wood duck x Shelduck in the Gillhams book on hybrid ducks,

and on the other hand there are some features which in my opinion can not be explained by a hybrid with Mandarin:

- beak pattern and black on the beak (I´d expect hybrids Shelduck with Mandarin to show an all red beak)
- dark undertail coverts in at least one of the hybrids (I´d expect hybrids Shelduck with mandarin to have always relatively pale undertail coverts)
- and maybe also the pale areas on the greenish head fit better to the white patches on a male wood duck head.

Therefore, I´d like to be cautious here before accepting this as a Mandarin hybrid.

Could we ask Dr. de Kloet on these birds history and how it came they were IDed as mandarin hybrids? For example; was a DNA-analysis made; and so on?

Best Regards

Jörn
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Jan Harteman

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Reactie #5 Gepost op: januari 26, 2008, 16:40:47 pm »

Citaat
Could we ask Dr. de Kloet on these birds history and how it came they were IDed as mandarin hybrids? For example; was a DNA-analysis made; and so on?
Just get in contact with him ;) his e-mail address is quoted on the page shown above.
I think you are in the right position to ask some questions as you are more familair with all genetics etc.
« Laatst bewerkt op: januari 26, 2008, 17:00:50 pm door Jan Harteman »
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Alcedo atthis

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Reactie #6 Gepost op: februari 07, 2008, 17:21:54 pm »

Hi Jan,
I contacted him and he says the birds were not DNA-tested. He says the parents (male Shelduck and female Mandarin) were in the aviary of a friend of him and there were no wood duck in the aviary. He says they had a rudimentary "sail" on their wing and their general colouration was in between shelduck and mandarin drakes rather than like a wood duck.
But this is not what i see from the photos (If the "sails" are the fairly pale tertials, this occurs also in some wood duck hybrids (Wood duck x Shelduck and Wood Duck x Mallard, for example) and would hold no proof for me

Since this was combination of a male shelduck and a female mandarin duck he says it should be relatively easy to test whether this is really true. He proposes sequencing part of the mitochondrial DNA . This is just the logical way i would also have proposed with having doubts about the female parentage.

(To explain for a non-biologist in short:  The mitochondria are little independent bodies in most living cells, which use the oxygen . Most DNA in a cell is in the nucleus, but the mitochondria have their own independent DNA. The important thing now is that in sexual reproduction of most animals, including verterbrates, the male cells, the sperm cells, are too small to carry mitochondria. But the cell from the female, the egg, carries mitochondria like any body cell. In sexual reproduction only the DNa from the nucley of sperm and egg combines. The DNAof the mitochondria has nothing to do with that, as the mitochondria live and work in your cell like little symbiotic bacteria. Due to the limited space in the sperm, so the new organism growing has all its mitochondria in its body cells from the mother- and therefore all the mitochondrial DNA is from the maternal line.
Now why is this helpful here?
As mitochondrial DNA differs between species and is relatively easy to access to, a look at the mitochondrial DNA could clarify the issue. )

So the best thing is this would be done if the birds are still available.....
« Laatst bewerkt op: februari 07, 2008, 17:23:03 pm door Alcedo atthis »
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Alcedo atthis

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Reactie #7 Gepost op: februari 14, 2008, 16:53:39 pm »

Hi all,

Dr. de Kloet said last week he might have some DNA samples from these birds, deep frozen, 15 years old, and wanted to check.

Will update you if I hear anything further.

Best Regards, Jörn
« Laatst bewerkt op: februari 14, 2008, 16:54:03 pm door Alcedo atthis »
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

gjcaspers

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Reactie #8 Gepost op: februari 14, 2008, 19:13:06 pm »

It might turn out then that the female Mandarin was in fact a misidentified Wood Duck...

By the way, I spoke again with the person who had claimed he knew of Mandarin x Wood Duck hybrids... now he thinks he might have confused the issue with Golden x Lady Amherst's Pheasant hybrids  :D
« Laatst bewerkt op: februari 14, 2008, 19:13:58 pm door gjcaspers »
Gelogd
Groet,
Gert-Jan Caspers

Sjoerd v Wierst

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Reactie #9 Gepost op: februari 14, 2008, 19:56:46 pm »

Small differents
Gelogd
Sjoerd van Wierst,

Tussen de 12 en 25?
De natuur in?
Kom mee!! JNM

Alcedo atthis

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Reactie #10 Gepost op: februari 25, 2008, 17:34:51 pm »

Hi all;

Got a message from Dr. de Kloet that he will soon start, however that might take some time, as he has several things on his plate...

Meanwhile here is a similar bird which was at Rieselfelder Münster in Germany this winter, and which I consider to be Wood duck x Shelduck:

http://www.rieselfelder-muenster.de/fauna/...brid_2008_1.htm


Best regards, Jörn
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Alcedo atthis

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Reactie #11 Gepost op: april 19, 2008, 13:56:19 pm »

Hi all ,

Dr. de Kloet told me that he did the first PCR. Allthough the reaction in itself worked beautifully, he encountered a difficulty: The sequence diversity between Mandarin and Wood Duck cytB sequences is not enough. So it wasn´t possible to draw any conclusions with this sequence. He is going to try another region the next weeks.

He thinks it would be easier if somebody had worked intensively with Mandarin and Wood duck DNA (Then one would know where the sequences between the species are different enough). However he doesn´t know anybody who did so. Anybody know such a person?

Best Regards, Jörn
Gelogd
greetings,
Jörn Lehmhus

Jan Harteman

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Mandarin Duck hybrids
« Reactie #12 Gepost op: april 21, 2008, 16:47:38 pm »

Citaat
He thinks it would be easier if somebody had worked intensively with Mandarin and Wood duck DNA (Then one would know where the sequences between the species are different enough). However he doesn´t know anybody who did so. Anybody know such a person?
He's probably one of a few with the possibility/knowledge of Anseriformes to do so... he does have connections in the waterfowl field, he can use his own Lab... so why can't he work on it ;)
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